The Arise Podcast

Season 4, Episode 10: Therapist Jennifer Jordan and Danielle S. Castillejo talk about Spiritual Abuse and It's Impacts

Episode Summary

I'm so honored to be joined by a therapist and a colleague, Jennifer Jordan. We talk a little bit about spiritual abuse, patriarchy, and mysogyny and its impacts, so, uh, link in notes to get ahold of her bio and find out how you can hear more from her. Just so honored to have this conversation.

Episode Notes

Website is reclamationcounseling.net and my instagram is @reclamationcounselingllc

Jenn is a therapist and writer who resides in Mobile, Alabama. She is also currently working as a fellow with the Allender Center. A lifelong resident of the south and a mother of four wild and remarkable daughters, she is passionate about reclamation. She loves to see those who know the legacy of trauma carve new paths forward and reclaim their voices, their bodies, and their stories - that they may truly live. She is currently taking new clients for therapy within the states of Alabama and Florida and also has story work coaching availability for those across the country.

Danielle:

Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and healing. And today, I'm so honored to be joined by a therapist and a colleague, Jennifer Jordan. We talk a little bit about spiritual abuse and its impacts, so, uh, link in notes to get ahold of her bio and find out how you can hear more from her. Just so honored to have this conversation. Yeah. It's, it's really good to be with you. You know, I got, I got to know Jen a little bit. Do you prefer Jen or Jennifer?

Okay. I got to know you a little bit through our, when we intersected at a training course at the Lander Center, and we were in the same group, and I was like, oh, I like that woman. Um, I loved your vulnerability, your skill as a facilitator. I trusted you, and then just who you emanated as a person. And so it feels really like an honor to get to talk with you in this space, like on a podcast. So thank you for coming.

Jennifer  (01:44):

Yeah. I'm so glad to be here and like, echo everything you're saying, like it feels really fun and exciting and like, um, uh, an honor to get to have this conversation. Mm-hmm. , you know, outside of the context that I've known you previously, so.

Danielle (02:00):

Right. Um, you know, like, I don't know if you're familiar with my pod, with our podcast, but, um, Maggie is on a break right now, like doing grad school and doing other things. But a lot of what we've noticed since the pandemic and since we've started talking on the podcast is how much spiritual abuse has been highlighted. Of course, prior to even, I think that awareness was the me Too movement, and then just patriarchy just seems like dripping every, like in all the systems we operate in mm-hmm. . And so yeah. As a clinician, as a therapist, like, before we jump into that, just love to hear like, what are you doing, where are you located, and what are your passions around serving, uh, people?

Jennifer (02:49):

Yeah, so I'm in Mobile, Alabama, down in the south, um, working as a therapist. Um, so I see clients, um, see clients in, um, Alabama and Florida, and then also offer some, um, a bit of a different service story work, consultation to people outside of, um, those states. But, um, really, really passionate. Um, my, my, my practice is called Reclamation Counseling. I feel super passionate about helping people to reclaim, um, what's been taken. Um, whether that's, um, their, their bodies, right, their voices, um, or just their stories have kind of been co-opted into a larger narrative, um, that, that removes their personhood and their individuality, um, and their culture. Um, I think that that's, that's my passion. I think it comes out in different ways, um, depending on the type of, uh, client that I'm working with. But, um, that's what I'm, that's what I'm about. And, and it's a major, it's a major thing for me. It's a big deal for me because that's been so much of my story. Um, and so, yeah, that, that's where I'm at. That's what I do. It's what I'm about.

Danielle (04:02):

I love that idea though. Like reclaiming, I think you said bodies and stories mm-hmm. . So when you think about that reclaiming process, like what do you see happening for clients or people you work with or maybe in your own life, if you can just speak to that a little bit.

Jennifer (04:20):

Yeah. So there's so much overlap there certainly, um, but overlap in terms of, um, like what I see happening with my clients and then what I see happening with myself. Um, but, you know, at the root, um, like naming the truth of the stories, the stories of both our personal individual lives within our families of origin, but then also, um, the larger narrative, like the stories of our ancestors, the stories of the culture that we come from, um, and, and as we piece together the truth of those stories, um, and, and, and the ways that, um, buying into, um, falsified stories, um, have cost us, um, that process of reclamation can begin. Um, and so, you know, you talk about spiritual abuse and patriarchy and pure culture and, um, and, and, you know, white supremacists, like all these things are so overlaid and so, um, so connected. But, um, so much of my process has been, um, like naming these multiple layers, these multiple layers of harm, um, that have like, been the building blocks on which my particular stories of harm have have been laid. And so, um, yeah, pulling the stories apart, naming the, naming the truth of the stories and then, um, like what, what has buying into, um, the, the, the false narrative of somebody else cost me? And what do I wanna take back as my own?

Danielle (06:00):

Hmm. Oh, when you think about that, like take back as your own and, and the intersection between, you know, you named a lot of layers. Yeah. Um, would you be able to speak a little more particularly to patriarchy and spiritual abuse?

Jennifer (06:14):

Yeah. So, um, you know, I, um, sharing some of my story, um, that, that's kind of the lens that I, I typically think through. Uh, I think we all do that, but, um, it's, it's what I'm most expert in, I guess. Um, uh, you know, if I think that this is true within many, um, evangelical circles, I think that being in the south, being raised in the deep south, um, in soybean fields on a farm, um, there's, there's an added layer to this, but, um, so much of what it means to be a good, good Christian girl, um, is to be, uh, what the, the system of patriarchy demands, um, of, of a female child. And, and so, um, you know, I learned at a very early age what was, what was, uh, most well received by the men, um, in my family, um, which was also kind of the spiritual context that I was raised in.

Um, and so I, I became really expert at doing that. And in that lost a lot of my voice, uh, lost a lot of my body, um, and also like gained some things that I've had to lay down. Um, and so yeah, it, it's been, I mean, there's, so, I mean, even as I'm starting to kind of name the reality, right? I feel the weight of the layers and I feel the just memories coming back and, um, uh, just, just the reality that it's been, been a process of kind of crawling out of a hole. And, um, I think for many of us who have, who have had that experience of, um, like our, our, our position and existence as a female wedded within, um, patriarchal spiritual systems, um, and then you put like the, the intricacies of like how white supremacy connects into that. Um, it, it is like there are layers and layers and layers and layers and layers to kind of dig out of. And so, um, I feel that even as I'm starting to name some of those truths,

Danielle (08:28):

Right? And I hear in what you're saying that you're able to hold or talk about, like, yeah, I, I lost these things, and and maybe you can say exactly what, even if it's general, what you, what a person tends to lose in that group. Yeah. And then I also gained some things. Yeah.

Jennifer (08:50):

Yeah. So, you know, I i going to, going into what I lost, um, you know, there is a very, um, particular thing that happens to me even now as a, as a 35 year old adult, right? That I've, I've done so much work around and have fought to ground my body in the midst of, but there is something that happens when, um, a man who has positional or spiritual authority, um, speaks to me. And, um, it, it, I've described it as almost like a brainwashing, um, a Halloween out, um, a a robotic falling in line, um, and a pleasant expression. Um, and so, so in that, you know, there's the loss of, of my own response, um, my own, uh, choice to disagree or agree, um, my own emotion, um, because kind of having a big emotional response was not, not okay. Um, and also, um, just the, the reality of the truth that my body holds in those moments, um, it, it, there's no space for it.

And so, yeah, learned from a very early age that that really needs to be set aside, which that in and of itself set me up for lots of other harm later down the road. Of course. Yeah. Um, but, but yeah, those are the things that it lost that I lost. But I think, you know, navigating what that gained me and my complicity within that, um, is, is a such a, like a concept that is so full of grief, um, and, and almost like it feels maddening to consider, but it, it, like we have to face it. Like I, as a southern white woman have to face that, right? Um, and so, um, it, it, it got me specialness, it got me preference and privilege mm-hmm. , um, it got me protection mm-hmm. , um, it got me, um, a voice even though it wasn't my own mm-hmm. . Um, I had, I had a space to exist where others didn't mm-hmm. , um, and it, it, and it got me the reputation of being, um, what I didn't wanna be and also what I wanted to be, which was, um, pure and preferred and desired. Um, and so there's a lot of complexity there, certainly, um, and a lot to grieve and, and much more to name, I'm sure. But those, those are some of the first thoughts I have.

Danielle (11:31):

It is kind of a miracle if anybody makes a 20 years of like, but when we got married, Luis, uh, came from Mexico on a fiance visa, and, um, he crossed, he was able to cross the border sooner than we thought because the visa came through so quickly, and then we had 90 days to get married. And so that 90 day window, we had scheduled our wedding for November, and I, it, we were out of the window for getting married. So the church wedding was in November. So he came up, we needed to get married, and the sooner we got married, then the sooner we could roll on the legal paperwork. Right. So we found a judge, the judge came to my parents' living room, and I remember telling him, like, and mind you, this is a guy not raised in purity culture, not raised in the strict evangelical setting. I was raised in telling him like, we can't have sex until we're married at the church because we're not married in front of God. And he's like, what? What do you mean? Like, ? Like, we're getting married. But I was like, no. Like, I'm convinced. So we got married in front of the judge, and I remember we got married, and I remember telling him like, I feel married. He's like, we're married.

I had like kind of proclaimed my purity in a sense to friends and family, like, we're not gonna have sex until we're married at the church. Mm-hmm. , and I was praised for that. Mm-hmm. , like, we were admired for that. And I remember even one time my parents went outta town and Louis was living there, and I made him, I locked him out onto the front porch to like avoid the quote unquote appearance of evil.

Wow. I just, as you know, 20 years came up. People are like, why do you have two wedding anniversaries? I'm like, actually, it's purity culture.

Gosh. But I think of the status even I gained in my family, gained by me holding to some false narrative of what, what marriage actually meant mm-hmm. that somehow it wasn't in the sight of God because it was a judge. Mm-hmm. . And so I did gain access and privilege, and I think in the meantime, Luis was like, well, I really love this woman. Like, what are we doing? Yeah. I'm just gonna go along . But that, I mean, that story's been so present in my mind as you share, like, uh, they, I did hold a sense of pride in that time mm-hmm. mm-hmm. , look what I did like Yeah. Yeah. And was praised for it among friends and family, you know? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.

Jennifer (14:14):

. Oh, yeah. Yes. I mean, look at how, yeah. And there's something of the, the holy struggle there too, right? That makes it even that much more admirable. Like, oh, we're, we're married, but we're not, actually, we're gonna, we're in a way, you know, there's, there's, yeah. That's complex. But yeah, I mean, I feel that, I feel that I feel, um,

In a, in the, the system I was raised in, um, which was highly patriarchal, uh, my grandfather was Greek is Greek, um, but, but just high, high, highly patriarchal, um, kind of extended family system that I lived in the middle of. Um, and, and women had a few jobs, um, which was, you know, to safe in and cook good meals and, um, and, and don't have emotional outbursts. Um, and so in that, in that, that place, like I felt very invisible, right? And so to, to be really pure and really, um, good and what they needed me to be, um, felt like it got, it got some of the attention that I was so longing for. Um, so it's really, it's really quite a trap, um, to be in the middle of

Oh, that's a great question. Um, and a complex question because I think the truth of the answer to that question is that I was really good. I was really good at being what everybody wanted me to be, um, really, really good at it. Um, and even in, in places where I wasn't so good at it, I was really good at hiding. Um, so I, I kept the appearance of, um, of, of, of what everybody wanted, um, and, and, uh, and it, it enabled me to survive, but also, um, caused my death in many ways. So

Danielle (16:24):

Yeah. There's something about that type of survival where you have to kill off who God created you to be. Mm-hmm. that, and I'm not saying the survival is unholy, but what's required of us to survive in the system is an unholiness mm-hmm. in a system that's proclaiming Yes. This is the way to be more holy. Right?

Jennifer (16:49):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean it, I mean, try, I'm trying to put word more words around that, and it, I just feel kind of the madness of it, right? Like the madness of to exist here and belong here, I need to be a certain thing. Um, and yet to be that certain thing means that I, I have to forsake and kill off so much of, of like the truth of who I am, and so either I'm cast out or I'm, um, or I'm being a fraud to stay. Um, and so it, it's, it's a, it's a bind.

Danielle (17:24):

Mm-hmm. when you feel that bind, I think there's always, like, you know, as therapist, we like talk about, like, let's highlight the bind. Yeah. And sometimes I'm like, well, what good is that? Yeah. Thanks for intensifying it, but like, how the heck do we get out? Or how the heck is this made Right. Or redeemed? And just curious, like, where does your mind go? Not that you have the answer and need to have the answer, but how do you meander through that for yourself or for clients?

Jennifer (17:55):

Dude, I mean, I think the, the first thing that comes to mind is just, um, like being willing to feel the grief of, of the unspeakable bind that, that, that position is. Um, and, and I think the grief brings us softness, um, that enables us to, um, feel our hearts again, , if, if that makes sense. Because I, I think that there's so much hardness required, um, to exist in that bind. And so I think that grief brings us softness that then allows us to face the truth a bit more, a bit more realistically. And then I think that, that if we are in a system that requires that of us, um, like we have to, we have to make the hard choice to face our complicity, and we have to make the hard choice to, to, to crawl our way out of that. And I know in my experience, like that has not been pretty, and that has not been easy. Um, but I think that, I think that like we have a, we know we see the truth, like we have to do something with it.

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think hardening and I think like, um, just in existence, that that hollow is the, the best word to describe it, um, in existence, that that looks, looks pretty good, looks really good to people within the system. Um, but I think internally, um, like there, there are places within us that know that it's not, it's not real. It's not, it's not full, it's not authentic. Um, so yeah.

Danielle (19:53):

Yeah. I love that way. You talk about it like, first entering the grief, being willing to grieve both the ways we've been complicit in the ways we've been harmed and like that feeling. I think what I heard you say is what brings kind of that alignment mm-hmm. for our heart back online. Mm-hmm. , I just think it's like so crazy to me that in order to acquire belonging or acquire acceptance, we actually have to deny who God created us to be. Mm-hmm. .

Jennifer (20:26):

I agree. And it makes you question like, okay, if that's what's happening here right then, then what is, this is what's the good in this,

Like, if, if we're all created uniquely in the image of God and, and the mission is that we would be more in alignment with that and be, be bringing God's kingdom here on earth as it is in heaven. Like if that's, if that's the goal and this, this system and structure, um, that is coded in spiritual candy, um, if you will, like, if it's requiring us to set aside those particularities to who we are, um, you know, I, you have to question like, Craig, what's the intent here? And I think the truth is a lot of the intent is like to hold power and supremacy. It's not to really do the, do the, the mission quote unquote mission of Jesus.

Danielle (21:28):

Right. Then I come to like, well, is that faith or religion or a cult or what's going on here? Because, because when I look back I'm like, well, well the, like, I can't deny what I read in the Bible. I can't deny what I felt Jesus. And yet I can say that where I was at was harming so many other people. Mm-hmm. , including myself.

, and how do I make sense of that? How do I make sense of learning about Jesus, learning about God learning, like, I'll just never forget, like around the whole abortion issue, the whole thing is like you're fearfully and wonderfully made mm-hmm. , and yet they don't want what God fearfully and wonderfully made once you're born and thinking and moving.

So then I'm like, well, what, what? Like, what was I really was that Yeah.

Jennifer (22:16):

Yeah. I feel that intensely. And I think, um, I don't, you know, the question remains because it is, it is, you know, this I think for so many of us that are, that are pulling our way out of systems that have been harmful to us, right. Like these are, this is the place where I was introduced to the thing I most care about in my life. This is the place where I was introduced to the person of Jesus. And, and I don't know where I would be without that. And yet, um, to really be in alignment with Jesus, I have had to peel back all the other pieces of, of what else this system gave me. Right. The other messages. And so I hear you. I mean, I think it is just, it, it is a question. And I do think that there are, uh, I think that we can't, you know, we can't deny the, the pursuit of power mm-hmm. and comfort mm-hmm. and, and, and wanting to hold onto like black and white truth cuz it's comfortable and easy to stomach. Um,

Danielle (23:30):

Yeah. When you talk about reclaiming, I think for, for me, what I come back to is part of what I reclaimed is that Jesus showed up to me in a lot of spaces where he actually wasn't even welcome , but he introduced himself to me

Through almost a false narrative about him, but he, he showed up in himself, which is how I came to faith mm-hmm. and how I see my faith moving despite, despite the falsification of who he was

Jennifer (24:04):

Yeah. Which is so wild, like, and beautiful. Right. And, and just points to like his I amenity mm-hmm. that goes beyond these systems that, um, make him something other than he is

. Um, but yeah. I love that. I love reclaiming, um, I love the way you said that, that in, in these systems where it was, you know, in fact wasn't very welcome like that in those places, he introduced himself to you. Mm-hmm. . I love that. And I feel that, feel that too. You

Danielle (24:44):

Yeah. Sorry, I interrupted. Um, no, you're good. Jen. When you think about that reclaiming process then for, for your clients or for someone who's listening, being like, I actually can't leave the system, or Sure. You don't understand if I leave, I'm gonna lose my family. Mm-hmm. , you don't understand if I say anything about white supremacy or share anything about what I'm voting for, I might lose my entire community. Like when someone walks into your office in that situation, what, what do you do with that?

Jennifer (25:18):

Yeah, I mean, I, I I mean first thing is like validate because it's true. It probably is true. I mean, and, and, and I think that that reality points so strongly to the truth of the situation that that individual is in, right? The truth of that system, that there really is no space for individuality. Um, and, and that to begin to speak up or to begin to move out of that, um, can't have great cost. Um, I think that, that that's a truth that needs to be acknowledged. And, and, um, you know, I so acknowledging that, that that's a reality. Um, and I, I think with a lot of kindness, the question I would pose to that person would be, um, I don't know, I, I, you know, at at what, what's it, what, what is it costing you to, to, to, what is it costing you, um, to remain

, right? Like, like cuz there is a big cost to leave. Like there is a huge cost, um, that, and you need support, you need resources, and you need, um, you know, people who, uh, can, can be with you in the grief of all that it will cost. Um, and I think just in the, the quiet like pondering of our own soul, we have to, we have to be willing to face what is it costing me of me to not do something? Um, and I think it begins with like very small Cause my experience was that like, it wasn't like being within a system, it wasn't just about the system, it was about the ways that I had been groomed mm-hmm. to not think, groomed, to not ask questions, groomed to not like Yeah. I mean, even ask a question, just say, Hey, like, why does this have to be this way?

Mm-hmm. like, I, I like those things didn't even cross my mind. And so I think like, it, it, it, in truth, I think it has to begin very small, um, with the grounding of your body, the telling of the stories and safe spaces so that there can be an increment of change toward, um, toward peeling back those layers of grooming Right. To where you can't ask a question and, and, and, and do the work to hold your own. Um, and trust that a series of those little moments of reclaiming your own voice and your own body and your own opinion and your own sense of who Jesus is, um, can accumulate and you, you doing what you need to do, whether that's leaving or whether that's staying and trying to be a voice for good, a voice for change. So that, that's kind of a framework that I think through.

Danielle (28:17):

Yeah. I like the way you put that. Like, it, like, I think a lot of us think like change is going to be like, suddenly I just like tear the building down mm-hmm. or burn all the books that were, you know, like cult like . I think often the longest change is so incremental, which makes it so painful.

But more sustainable, I think. Mm-hmm. it doesn't mean you don't lose what you were fearful you lose in the end. Sure. You still may lose all of those things, but you do gain a lot by through incremental change. Mm-hmm.

Jennifer (28:53):

certainly. Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, you gain the, the beauty of who you are apart from that and, and, and you gain the, the feeling of, um, like I am being true to my own knowing, my own sense of right and wrong, my own, um, you know, my own spirituality. Um, and, and you know, I think it, it always is such a motivator for, for us as parents, um, to when we, when we know that what we're doing will have generational implications, right? It's like there is the potential for so much loss, even in the incremental changes that can't be denied, but to have a generational forward, like a, a forward facing view of what might be gained beyond my generation, should I be willing to take these incremental steps that, that could lead to major loss? Like is, is a worthwhile, worthwhile gain, um, just to give my kids a different chance, you know, just to give them like, like the beginning of a different narrative.

So my website is reclamation counseling.net. Um, and I'm also on Instagram, um, building a presence there. It's at Reclamation Counseling llc. Um, so those are probably the two best, best places to find me. Um, but yeah, I'd love to connect and, um, I really, I feel so passionate, like you wanna come along alongside people who are asking them really hard questions and, and doing the really hard work of incremental change, um, within their stories that can lead to bigger waves of change outside of them. So yeah.

Danielle (30:55):

I wonder what you would tell someone who can't even pick up the phone or send an email or an Instagram message. Like, what, what do you tell that person that isn't up to doing that part of the labor? Like, what's your word for

Jennifer (31:09):

Them? Oh man, that question like, brings tears to my eyes because, um, that just feels like very, like I remember those days mm-hmm. . Um, and I, I would say stay curious. Like, just stay curious, keep reading. Um, know that if you're not there yet, that's okay. And yet, like listen, listen to and honor that voice inside of you that's like wanting something more for yourself and wanting something more for your kids. Even like, don't, don't deny that there's time, there's space. Um, but keep, even if it's a little step of listening to another podcast or picking up a book or, um, you know, like asking the questions in a journal cuz you don't have anybody you can talk to about 'em. Like stay with that, that voice inside of you and stay curious.

Danielle (32:04):

Yeah. Well just thank you so much for your wisdom. So there's three questions that we usually wrap up with. It's what are you reading, what are you listening to, and who, or what's inspiring you?

Jennifer (32:16):

Okay. So, um, I'm reading The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. Yeah. So trying to recover some practices of creativity and, um, it's been very disruptive and good for my life. Um, so yeah, I'm reading that, um, listening to Part from, you know, podcast. Uh, music wise, I've been listening to three things depending on who's in the car with me. Um, the Hamilton soundtrack, um, zombies, three soundtrack or, um, the new Taylors Swift album. So those are the three things that have been playing for me recently. And then, um, what's the last question? Are you inspired by Yeah. Who are you inspired by? Oh, man. Gosh, so many people, um, faith who are like, who are still speaking up and who have the courage to continue to be that prophet voice in the wilderness, like in the face of such violence, um, and, and, and dishonesty, um, from so many, um, other people of faith. Um, so I, I feel very inspired by those voices. So, and you're included in that, Danielle. Oh, thanks man. Appreciate your voice. Yeah. I'm inspired by this conversation, so we gotta do this again. Yeah, I would love that. I would love that. Yeah. Yeah.