today Jenny's going to read a part of a presentation she's giving in a week, and I hope you really listen in The political times are heavy and the news about Epstein has been triggering for so many, including Jenny and myself. I hope as you listen, you find yourself somewhere in the conversation and if you don't, I hope that you can find yourself with someone else in your close sphere of influence. These conversations aren't perfect. We can't resolve it at the end. We don't often know what we need, so I hope as you listen along that you join us, you join us and you reach out for connection in your community with friends, people that you trust, people that you know can hold your story. And if you don't have any of those people that maybe you can find the energy and the time and the internal resources to reach out. You also may find yourself activated during this conversation. You may find yourself triggered and so this is a notice that if you feel that that is a possibility and you need to take a break and not listen to this episode, that's okay. Be gentle and kind with yourself and if you feel like you want to keep listening, have some self-care and some ways of connecting with others in place, go ahead and listen in.
Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):
I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHC
I am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.
I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!
I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias’ and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.
I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!
Danielle (00:10):
Welcome to the Arise Podcast with my colleague Jenny McGrath and I today Jenny's going to read a part of a presentation she's giving in a week, and I hope you really listen in The political times are heavy and the news about Epstein has been triggering for so many, including Jenny and myself. I hope as you listen, you find yourself somewhere in the conversation and if you don't, I hope that you can find yourself with someone else in your close sphere of influence. These conversations aren't perfect. We can't resolve it at the end. We don't often know what we need, so I hope as you listen along that you join us, you join us and you reach out for connection in your community with friends, people that you trust, people that you know can hold your story. And if you don't have any of those people that maybe you can find the energy and the time and the internal resources to reach out. You also may find yourself activated during this conversation. You may find yourself triggered and so this is a notice that if you feel that that is a possibility and you need to take a break and not listen to this episode, that's okay. Be gentle and kind with yourself and if you feel like you want to keep listening, have some self-care and some ways of connecting with others in place, go ahead and listen in. Hey Jenny, I'd love to hear a bit about your presentation if you don't even mind giving us what you got.
Jenny (01:41):
Yeah, absolutely. I am very honored. I am going to be on a panel entitled Beyond Abstinence Only Purity Culture in Today's Political Moment, and this is for the American Academy of Religion. And so I am talking about, well, yeah, I think I'll just read a very rough draft version of my remarks. I will give a disclaimer, I've only gone over it once so far, maybe twice, so it will shift before I present it, but I'm actually looking forward to talking about it with you because I think that will help me figure out how I want to change it. I think it'll probably just be a three to five minute read if that even
Okay. Alright. I to look at the current political moment in the US and try to extract meaning and orientation from purity culture is essential, but if we only focus on purity culture in the us, we are naval gazing and missing a vital aspect of the project that is purity culture. It is no doubt an imperialist project. White women serving as missionaries have been foot soldiers for since Manifest Destiny and the creation of residential schools in North America and even before this, yet the wave of white women as a force of white Christian nationalism reached its white cap in the early two thousands manifest by the power of purity culture. In the early 1990s, a generation of young white women were groomed to be agents of empire unwittingly. We were told that our value and worth was in our good pure motives and responsibility to others.
(03:31):
We were trained that our racial and gender roles were pivotal in upholding the white, straight, heteronormative, capitalistic family that God designed and we understood that this would come at us martyring our own body. White women therefore learned to transmute the healthy erotic vitality that comes from an awakening body into forms of service. The transnational cast of white Christian supremacy taught us that there were none more deserving more in need than black and brown bodies in the global south pay no attention to black and brown bodies suffering within the us. We were told they could pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but not in the bodies of color. Outside the membrane of the US white women believed ourselves to be called and furthermore trusted that God would qualify us for the professional roles of philanthropists, medical service providers, nonprofit starters and adoptive mothers of black and brown children in the global south.
(04:30):
We did not blanc that often. We did not actually have the proper training, much less accountability for such tasks and neither did our white Christian communities. We were taking on roles of power we would have never been given in white spaces in the US and in doing so we were remaining compliant to our racial and gendered expectations. This meant among many other things, giving tacit approval to international states that were being used as pawns by the US Christian. Right among these states, the most prominent could arguably be Uganda. Uganda was in the zeitgeist of white Christian youth, the same white Christian youth that experienced life altering commitments given in emotionally evocative abstinence rituals. We were primed for the documentary style film turned organization invisible Children, which found its way into colleges, youth groups, and worship services all over the country. Many young white women watched these erotically charged films, felt a compulsion to do something without recognizing that compulsion came from the same tendrils of expectations, purity, culture placed on our bodies.
(05:43):
Invisible children's film was first released in 2004 and in their release of Kony 2012 reached an audience of a hundred million in its first week of release. Within these same eight years, Ugandan President Veni who had a long entangled relationship with the US Christian right signed into law a bill that made homosexuality the death penalty in certain cases, which was later overturned. He also had been responsible for the forced removal of primarily acho people in Northern Uganda from their lands and placed them into internally displaced people's camps where their death T tolls far exceeded those lost by Coney who musevini claimed to be fighting against as justification for the violent displacement of Acho people. Muny Musevini also changed the Ugandan constitution to get reelected despite concerns that these elections were not truly democratic and has remained president of Uganda for the last 39 years. Uganda was the Petri dish of American conservative laboratory of Christo fascism where whiteness and heteronormative racialized systems of purity culture were embalmed. On November 5th, 2, 20, 24, we experienced what am termed the boomerang of imperialism. Those who have had an eye on purity cultures influence in countries like Uganda are not surprised by this political moment. In fact, this political moment is not new. The only thing new about it is that perhaps for the first time the effects are starting to come more thoroughly to white bodies and white communities. The snake has begun to eat its own tail.
Scary. Okay. It feels like poking an already very angry hornet's nest and speaking to things that are very alive and well in our country right now. So I feel that and I also feel a sense of resolve, you might say that I feel like because of that it feels imperative to speak to my experience and my research and this current political moment. Do you mind if I ask what it was like to hear it?
Danielle (08:30):
It is interesting. Right before I hopped on this call, I was doing mobility at my gym and at the end when my dear friend and I were looking at our DNA, and so I guess I'm thinking of it through the context of my body, so I was thinking about that as you're reading it, Jenny, you said poking the bear and before we shift too fast to what I think, what's the bear you believe you're poking?
Jenny (09:08):
I see it as the far right Christian nationalist ideology and talking about these things in the way that I'm talking about them, I am stepping out of my gender and racial expectations as a white cis woman where I am meant to be demure and compliant and submissive and not calling out abuse of power. And so I see that as concerning and how the religious right, the alt religious right Christian, religious right in the US and thankfully it was not taken on, but even this week was the potential of the Supreme Court seeing a case that would overturn the legalization of gay marriage federally and that comes out of the nuclear focus of the family that James stops and heralded was supposed to be the family. It's one man and it's one woman and you have very specific roles that you're supposed to play in those families.
Danielle (10:35):
Yeah, I mean my mind is just going a thousand miles a minute. I keep thinking of the frame. It's interesting, the frame of the election was built on economy, but after that it feels like there are a few other things like the border, which I'm including immigration and migrants and thoughts about how to work with that issue, not issue, I don't want to say it's an issue, but with that part of the picture of what makes up our country. The second thing that comes to mind after those two things is there was a huge push by MAGA podcasters and church leaders across the country, and I know I've read Cat Armas and a bunch of other people, I've heard you talking about it. There's this juxtaposition of these people talking about returning to some purity, the fantasy of purity, which you're saying you're talking about past and present in your talk while also saying, Hey, let's release the Epstein files while voting for this particular person, Donald Trump, and I am caught. If you look at the statistics, the amount of folks perpetrating violent crime that are so-called migrants or immigrants is so low compared to white men.
(12:16):
I am caught in all those swirling things and I'm also aware that there's been so many things that have happened in the last presidency. There was January 6th and now we have, we've watched ICE in some cases they've killed people in detention centers and I keep thinking, is sexual purity or the idea of the fantasy that this is actually a value of the Christian? Right? Is that going to be something that moves people? I don't know. What do you think?
Jenny (12:54):
I think it's a fair question. I think it is what moved bodies like mine to be complicit in the systems of white supremacy without knowing that's what I was doing. And at the same time that I myself went to Uganda as a missionary and spent the better part of four years there while saying and hearing very hateful and derogatory things about migrants and the fact that signs in Walmart were in Spanish in Colorado, and these things that I was taught like, no, we need to remain pure IE white and heteronormative in here, and then we take our good deeds to other countries. People from Mexico shouldn't be coming up here. We should go on Christmas break and build houses for them there, which I did and it's this weird, we talk a lot about reality. It is this weird pseudo reality where it's like everything is upside down and makes sense within its own system.
(14:13):
I had a therapist at one point say, it's like you had the opposite of a psychotic break when I decided to step out of these worlds and do a lot of work to come into reality because it is hard to explain how does talking about sexual purity lead to what we're seeing with ice and what we're seeing with detention. And I think in reality part of that is the ideology that the body of the US is supposed to primarily be white, straight Christian heteronormative. And so if we have other bodies coming in, you don't see that cry of immigrants in the same way for people that came over from Ukraine. And I don't mean that anything disparagingly about people that needed to come over from Ukraine, but you see that it's a very different mindset from white bodies entering the US than it is black and brown bodies within this ideological framework of what the family or the body of individuals and the country is supposed to look like.
I've been pretty dissociated lately. I think yesterday was very tough as we're seeing just trickles of emails from Epstein and that world and confirmation of what any of us who listened to and believed any of the women that came forward already knew. But it just exposes the falseness that it's actually about protecting anyone because these are stories of young children, of youth being sexually exploited and yet the machine keeps powering on and just keeps trying to ignore that the man they elected to fight the rapists that were coming into our country or the liberals that were sex child trafficking. It turns out every accusation was just a confession.
Danielle (16:43):
Oh man. Every accusation was a confession. In psychological terms, I think of it as projection, like the bad parts I hate about me, the story that criminals are just entering our country nonstop. Well, the truth is we elected criminals. Why are we surprised that by the behavior of our government when we voted for criminality and I say we because I'm a participant in this democracy or what I like to think of as a democracy and I'm a participant in the political system and capitalism and I'm a participant here. How do you participate then from that abstinence, from that purity aspect that you see? The thread just goes all the way through? Yeah,
Jenny (17:48):
I see it as a lifelong untangling. I don't think I'm ever going to be untangled unfortunately from purity culture and white supremacy and heteronormative supremacy and the ways in which these doctrines have formed the way that I have seen the world and that I'm constantly needing to try to unlearn and relearn and underwrite and rewrite these ways that I have internalized. And I think what's hard is I, a lot of times I think even in good intentions to undo these things in activist spaces, we tend to recreate whiteness and we tend to go, okay, I've got it now I'm going to charge ahead and everyone follow me. And part of what I think we need to deconstruct is this idea of a savior or even that an idea is going to save us. How do we actually slow down even when things are so perilous and so immediate? How do we kind of disentangle the way whiteness and capitalism have taught us to just constantly be churning and going and get clearer and clearer about how we got here and where we are now so that hopefully we can figure out how to leave less people behind as we move towards whatever it looks like to move out of this whiteness thing that I don't even honestly have yet an imagination for.
(19:26):
I have a hope for it, but I can't say this is what I think it's going to look like.
Danielle (20:10):
I'm just really struck by, well, maybe it was just after you spoke, I can't remember if it was part of your talk or part of your elaboration on it, but you were talking about Well, I think it was afterwards it was about Mexicans can't come here, but we can take this to Mexico.
Yeah. And I wonder if that, do you feel like that was the same for Uganda?
Jenny (20:45):
Absolutely. Yeah. Which I think it allows that cast to remain in place. One of the professors that I've been deeply influenced by is Ose Manji, and he's a Kenyan professor who lives in Canada who's spent many years researching development work. And he challenges the idea that saviors need victims and the privilege that I had to live in communities where I could fundraise thousands of dollars for a two week or a two month trip is not separate from a world where I'm stepping into communities that have been exploited because of the privileges that I have,
(21:33):
But I can launder my conscience by going and saying I helped people that needed it rather than how are the things that I am benefiting from causing the oppression and how is the government that I'm a part of that has been meddling with countries in Central America and Africa and all over the globe creating a refugee crisis? And how do I deal with that and figure out how to look up, not that I want to ignore people that are suffering or struggling, but I don't want to get tunnel vision on all these little projects I could do at some point. I think we need to look up and say, well, why are these people struggling?
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah, I don't know. I don't have fully formed thoughts. So just in the back, I was thinking, what if you reversed that and you said, well, why is the American church struggling?
(22:55):
I was just thinking about what if you reversed it and I think why is the American church struggling? And we have to look up, we have to look at what are the causes? What systems have we put in place? What corruption have we traded in? How have we laundered our own conscience? I mean, dude, I don't know what's going on with my internet. I need a portable one. I just dunno. I think that comment about laundering your own conscience is really beautiful and brilliant. And I mean, it was no secret that Epstein had done this. It's not a secret. I mean, they're release the list, but they know. And clearly those senators that are releasing those emails drip by drip, they've already seen them. So why did they hang onto them?
Jenny (24:04):
Yeah. Yeah. I am sad, I can't remember who this was. Sean was having me listen to a podcast the other day, just a part of it talking about billionaires. But I think it could be the same for politicians or presidents or the people that are at the top of these systems we've created. That's like in any other sphere, if we look at someone that has an unsatiable need for something, we would probably call that an addiction and say that that person needs help. And actually we need to tend to that and not just keep feeding it. And I think that's been a helpful framework for me to think about these people that are addicted to power that will do anything to try to keep climbing that ladder or get the next ring that's just like, that is an unwell person. That's a very unwell person.
Speaker Danielle
I mean, I'm not surprised, I think, did you say you felt very dissociated this past week? I think I've felt the same way because there's no way to take in that someone, this person is one of the kings of human trafficking. The all time, I mean great at their job. And we're hearing Ghislaine Maxwell is at this minimum security prison and trading for favors and all of these details that are just really gross. And then to hear the Republican senator or the speaker of the house say, well, we haven't done this because we're thinking of the victims. And literally the victims are putting out statements saying, get the damn files out. So the gaslighting is so intense to stay present to all of that gaslighting to stay present to not just the first harm that's happened, but to stay present to the constant gaslighting of victims in real time is just, it is a level of madness. I don't think we can rightfully stay present in all of it.
(26:47):
I don't know. I don't know what we can do, but Well, if anybody's seen the Handmaid's Tale, she is like, I can't remember how you say it in Latin, but she always says, don't let the bastards grind you down. I keep thinking of that line. I think of it all the time. I think connecting to people in your community keep speaking truth, it matters. Keep telling the truth, keep affirming that it is a real thing. Whether it was something at church or like you talked about, it was a missionary experience or abstinence experience, or whether you've been on the end of conversion therapy or you've been a witness to that and the harm it's done in your community. All of that truth telling matters, even if you're not saying Epstein's name, it all matters because there's been such an environment created in our country where we've normalized all of this harm. I mean, for Pete's sake, this man made it all the way to the presidency of the United States, and he's the effing best friend of Epstein. It's like, that was okay. That was okay. And even getting out the emails. So we have to find some way to just keep telling truth in our own communities. That's my opinion. What about yours?
Jenny (28:17):
Yeah, I love that telling The truth matters. I feel that, and I think trying to stay committed to being a safe person for others to tell the truth too, because I think the level, as you use the word gaslighting, the level of gaslighting and denial and dismissal is so huge. And I think, I can't speak for every survivor, but I think I take a guess to say at least most survivors know what it's like to not be believed, to be minimized, to be dismissed. And so I get it when people are like, I'm not going to tell the truth because I'm not going to be believed, or I'm just going to get gaslit again and I can respect that. And so I think for me, it's also how do I keep trying to posture myself as someone that listens and believes people when they tell of the harm that they've experienced? How do I grow my capacity to believe myself for the harm that I've experienced? And who are the people that are safe for me to go to say, do you think I'm crazy? And they say, no, you're not. I need those checkpoints still.
First, I would just want to validate how shit that is and unfortunately how common that is. I think that it's actually, in my experience, both personally and professionally, it is way more rare to have safe places to go than not. And so I would just say, yeah, that makes sense for me. Memoirs have been a safe place. Even though I'm not putting something in the memoir, if I read someone sharing their story, that helps me feel empowered to be like, I believe what they went through. And so maybe that can help me believe what I've gone through. And then don't give up looking, even if that's an online community, even if that's a community you see once a month, it's worth investing in people that you can trust and that can trust you.
Danielle (30:59):
I agree. A thousand percent don't give up because I think a lot of us go through the experience of when we first talk about it, we get alienated from friends or family or people that we thought were close to us, and if that's happened to you, you didn't do anything wrong. That sadly is something very common when you start telling the truth. So just one to know that that's common. It doesn't make it any less painful. And two, to not give up, to keep searching, keep trying, keep trying to connect, and it is not a perfect path. Anyway. Jenny, if we want to hear your talk when you give it, how could we hear it or how could we access it?
Jenny (31:52):
That's a great question. I dunno, I'm not sure if it's live streamed or not. I think it's just in person. So if you can come to Boston next week, it's at the American Academy of Religion. If not, you basically heard it. I will be tweaking things. But this is essentially what I'm talking about is that I think in order to understand what's going on in this current political moment, it is so essential that we understand the socialization of young white women in purity culture and what we're talking about with Epstein, it pulls back the veil that it's really never about purity. It's about using white women as tropes for Empire. And that doesn't mean, and we weren't given immense privilege and power in this world because of our proximity to white men, but it also means that we were harmed. We did both. We were harmed and we caused harm in our own complicity to these systems. I think it is just as important to hold and grow responsibility for how we caused harm as it is to work on the healing of the harm that was caused to us.
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Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.
Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.